4 Jan. 46

Church policy is revised completely and the persecution of the Church ceases"?

SCHELLENBERG: Yes, the gist of the conversation is correct; and I spoke with the then Ambassador Von Papen to this effect.

DR. ALFRED THOMA (Counsel for Defendant Rosenberg): You said a little while ago that, with respect to authority, the same regulations applied in the area of the civil administration as in the Reich.

SCHELLENBERG: I said they were to apply.

DR. THOMA: Please answer my question again.

SCHELLENBERG: I will repeat: I described the agreement which contained the provision that in the areas intended for civil administration (Reichskommissariat) the same relations between the Army and the Security Police and the SD, in regard to subordination and command, were applicable as in the Reich.

DR. THOMA: Do you know how that was done in practice?

SCHELLENBERG: No, later on I did not concern myself with these questions any more.

DR. THOMA: Thank you.

HERR BABEL: You were a member of the SS and of the SD, and in leading positions ...

THE PRESIDENT: Will you state, for the purposes of the record, which organization you appear on behalf of?

HERR BABEL: I represent the organization of the SS and SD.

[Turning to the witness.] In the RSHA there were departments of the Security Police and the SD. How were these two departments interrelated, and what was the purpose of the SD?

SCHELLENBERG: That is a question that I cannot answer with one sentence.

HERR BABEL: I can withdraw the question for the moment and ask a concrete one: Was the SD used with the "Einsatzgruppen" in the East? To what extent? And for what tasks?

SCHELLENBERG: I believe that most of this work in the East was undertaken by the Security Police, that is, by the Secret State Police and the Criminal Police and that only supplementary contingents were formed from the personnel of the SD.

HERR BABEL: How large were these contingents? How large was the SD?

SCHELLENBERG: I believe that I can estimate the figures: Excluding female employees, the State Police — perhaps 40,000 to 45,000; the Criminal Police — 15,000 to 20,000; the SD of the interior, that is, Amt III with its organizational subsidiaries — 2,000 to 2,500; and the SD outside Germany, that is my Amt VI — about 400.